A newly discovered document from March 1991 shows US, UK, French, and German officials discussing a pledge made to Russia that NATO will not expand to Poland and beyond. Its publication by the German magazine Der Spiegel on Friday proves Moscow right and NATO wrong on the matter.
The minutes of a March 6, 1991 meeting in Bonn between political directors of the foreign ministries of the US, UK, France, and Germany contain multiple references to “2+4” talks on German unification in which the West made it “clear” to the Soviet Union that NATO will not expand past the eastern borders of Germany.
“We made it clear to the Soviet Union – in the 2+4 talks, as well as in other negotiations – that we do not intend to benefit from the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Eastern Europe,” the document quotes US Assistant Secretary of State for Europe and Canada Raymond Seitz.
“NATO should not expand to the east, either officially or unofficially,” Seitz added.
A British representative also mentions the existence of a “general agreement” that membership of NATO for eastern European countries is “unacceptable.”
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https://alethonews.com/2022/02/18/document-confirms-us-told-russia-nato-wont-expand/
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You arse talking about apples and oranges.
Going back far enough in history most of Europe was under the Roman Empire. The mongols devestated most of Europe, Russia just happened to be on the way for them. Every country has been attacked, invaded, ruled by others at one time or another, that doesn't justify taking over a country as a buffer. Ukrain is only one country between Russia and others, there's probably at least 10 European countries any invader from the west could go through to attack Russia, does that give Russia the right to take them over as well? When and if Russia takes over the Ukrain, and now they border Hungary, should they take that over, and then Austria, and so on? Napoleon had to go through several countries on his way to Russia, not just the Ukrain, the same with Germany, etc. That much for Russia justifying the invasion of the Ukrain......it's warped!
The Bolsheviks were called the majority, not a communist party, yet they were communists, so just because a revolution is called by a certain name doesn't mean it is a true name to describe them, the democrats are called democrats yet they are more like the communists today. Canada supposed to be a democracy, but are they today as their prime minister is taking their money and even their animals, they are arresting peaceful citizens. The USSR was called a socialist republic, but they were communists. If it walks, talks, looks like a duck, it's a duck regardless what it wants to be called. A man is a man even if he is dressed like a woman, etc! The government of the Ukrain is corrupt, they poison or imprison their adversaries, people have to go into hiding opposing the government, free speech is not free if you are punished for it, they are a bunch of thugs stealing from the government and lining their pockets, they are still acting like the leadership did when they were under Soviet control. We have close Ukrainian friends who are here in the USA for those reasons, missing their homeland and their families but wanting to give their children a better future!
You talk to me as though I am on the Russians side of things here! Let me be clear and blunt.
You counterpointed yourself by first blasting communist Russia and then the Ukrainians, who side are you taking? As for me I am with the Ukrainians. That said,
You asked the question,"I'm unclear what invasions of Russia you are referring to that happened through the Ukraine, especially large enough to take over a huge part of Russia."
I just clarified it for you, you did not specify the age or time of the invasions.
You are correct that the Russians have no right to take over a country as a buffer, no country does, not in this day and age. As fare as the Bolsheviks are, I agreed with Patton when after WWII he wanted to destroy Russia and was relieved for saying it.
As fare as your friends go they are, (at least the men) cowards for not being in there own country fighting for there own freedom. The French didn't run they formed the underground and fought the Nazi occupation, when Stalen invaded Ukrain in the past the Ukrainians fought hard and a lot died, but they did so with honor and dignity . Ukraine is a new democracy and as such is going to have problems, but they need to work through them including routing out corruption and the USA can help them with that if they are let in the NATO agreement.
When you mention the poisoning of leaders, its the Russians that are good for that. The guy in charge now was duly elected and supported by his people and government.
You can repeat that the Ukrain is a democracy as much as you'd like, but it doesn't behave as a democracy. There have been poisonings in the Ukrain, they may have learned it from the Russians, who may have learned it from the Chinese, or perhaps from the Brits, but they too are doing it, you ignoring that doesn't change the fact.
i am on neither side! The Ukrain is a Ukrainian problem, not ours, we need to stay out of it, we certainly don't need more American lives lost over situations that we should not be involved in. Send the Ukrain supplies, I'm okay with that, but that's where it stops. As far as my Ukrainian friends, it is easy to judge the decisions of people in situations you have no clear, nor deep enough knowledge of. You don't understand the workings of communist minds (yes, Putin and many in the Ukrainian government are communists), easy to have an opinion sitting in the comfort of your living room, never have lived in their skin.
You haven't seen the smuggling of young women over the border going west, use them for prostitution, standing on road sides in nothing but thongs and high heals, waiting for male tourists to stop to take them into the woods. Yes, I drove those roads and seen them with my own eyes! They arent doing this willingly, they do it because they know their families are in danger if they don't cooperate.......their government does absolutely nothing to help, in fact are willing to take kickbacks. The people are terrorized from within, they are not living in peace among their own people, they still cannot trust each other, can't trust their government.....much like during communism, there is no free speech. they are unarmed, unprotected by their own government, regardless what they call it, it isn't a democracy.
You see the difficulties we are facing here because of our government, you see how hard it is to find ways to try to reastablish our freedoms, you see how our people are imprisoned with no charges over a year, over there they just disappear. The USA hasn't been willing to help anyone in decades, not willing to win a war! Vietnam, Afghanistan, Lybia, Iraq, can you honestly say they are better of after we were there? How is it that every time we stick our noses in we make a deal with the bad guys rather than win, and eliminate the tyrants. Germany was divided, so was Korea, Vietnam, half of Europe was handed over to Stalin while the other half was favored! We already allowed Russia to take Crimea...how much more are we willing to negotiate over?
"The guy in charge now was duly elected and supported by his people and government." yes, and he puts his opposition into prison! How much is he willing to negotiate over in order to keep power over some of it.....with our help. The Hungarians asked for American help in 1956, they were willing to fight, they did fight, but when the Russian tanks rolled in they were outnumbered and the Americans never showed, didn't even send help, and Hungary remained behind the iron curtain until 1991. They share a lot border with the Ukrain......how is the Ukrain more important than Hungary was? What makes you think the end result will be different with American help, with troops who aren't allowed to fight to win? NATO will change nothing for the Ukrain, a bunch of contractors will make millions, the west hasn't been able to fight against their own corruption, we are up to our ears in doodoo, and we are going to save another country. RIGHT!
The only reason he is in prison is because he was corrupt and was caught. He is not a political prisoner.
You stated "You don't understand the workings of communist minds (yes, Putin and many in the Ukrainian government are communists), easy to have an opinion sitting in the comfort of your living room, never have lived in their skin."and "You haven't seen the smuggling of young women over the border going west, use them for prostitution".
First you don't know me or what I have experience, I was war gaming against the Russians in the early to mid 80's at the division level in the military, so I know the communist mind. I served 18 months on the DMZ in Korea and have seen and felt communist hate up close have you? I've seen Korean girls sold into prostitution, they have no right there, should we leave them? I've trained Contra rebels that were at war with there own country in Honduras against the Sandinista. I was born and raised and lived in and around our own southern border, been to Mexico and Panama often, I have seen poverty and other hardships you probably never experianced yourself about. But I wont judge you they way you have me.
You stated “The people are terrorized from within, they are not living in peace among their own people, they still cannot trust each other, can't trust their government”, Maybe we should be worried about our own country since you defined it so accurately. Weather its a democracy or not I really don't care. Those people have been killing each other since creation, why should I care about it.
Perhaps we shoulder not give them anything since our own deficit is making our grandchildren bankrupt. Giving them weapons now would be futile and a wast of money, if they were smart they would just surrender. Half of there population is here anyway. For that matter why even be in NATO, its a worthless organization anyway it allows our leaders to go to war without declaring war, and it is as corrupt as the U.N. That would save us a lot of money and blood. So lets just be a protectionist nation and not worry about any other country at all. Let China have Taiwan and the south China sea, whats it to us anyway. Had the Japs not attacked us and joined old Adolf we should have let them have china. Look at what happened to them after we intervened. Oh, I forgot there a democracy, sorry.
But, we can't withdraw from the world, and we are not the policeman of the world either. The fault of all of the foreign entanglements lay dead on our politicians going back to post WWII. Our country needs to get back to the constitution and follow it or we will lose it. And please don't yell at me! I didn't cause any of this shit.
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