Megyn Kelly Interviews Charles Koch on Moral Values, Political Principles, and Happiness

Megyn Kelly Interviews Charles Koch on Moral Values, Political Principles, and Happiness

‎Today, ‎October ‎16, ‎2015, ‏‎7 hours ago | Jenna Lifhits

Fox News host Megyn Kelly sat down with conservative businessman and philanthropist Charles Koch for a rare interview Thursday.

Koch discussed the influence of his father on his work ethic, portraying him as a man who believed in initiative, independence, and the “glorious feeling of accomplishment.” He then revealed the unique hiring process at Koch Industries, which is based not on a degree from a prestigious university, but on integrity.

“I’ve had the philosophy that John Adams expressed, in the kind of system that we’re trying to create in this country: that this is a system for moral people. It will work for no other,” he said.

Koch also talked about his political principles, telling Kelly that he considered himself not a libertarian, as commonly thought, but a classical liberal.

“A classical liberal is someone who wants a society that maximizes peace, civility, tolerance, and well-being for everyone. One that opens opportunities for everyone to advance themselves,” he said.

He decried the arrogance of the “tyranny of experts”: a vision of society that places a premium on specialists and believes that the people “are too evil or stupid to run their own lives.” He said that in this vision, specialists, armed with technical knowledge, climb to power because they are seen as “perfectly capable of running everybody else’s lives, because they’re so much smarter.”

Later in the interview, Koch told Kelly what motivates him to keep working at the age of 79.

“I feel a passion for what we’re trying to do,” he said. “I mean, why does somebody who’s old who’s a writer keep writing? Because that’s who they are.”

In an especially illuminating moment, he told her how he conceived of happiness, hearkening back to Aristotle’s enduring philosophy.

“To be happy you have to fulfill your nature. That’s what Aristotle taught so many centuries ago, that the road to happiness isn’t to go drink more or consume more. The road to happiness is to fully develop your abilities, and then apply them to do good,” Koch said.

Full transcript below:

MEGYN KELLY: So how exactly did Charles Koch, a man demonized by the president, the majority leader and minority leader, to name a few, become so feared and so successful? For the first time, he tells us from his home in Wichita, banged up a little thanks to foot surgery, and wearing a cast decorated by his wife. Ready to talk about life, politics and his book, Good Profit.

KELLY: So your book, Good Profit, reads to me like a love letter to your father. How big of an influence was he?

CHARLES KOCH: Both my parents were a tremendous influence on me. My father’s influence came from — he decided well, probably before we were born that as he put it, ‘I’m not going to have any kids who are country club bums.’

KELLY: He worked you.

KOCH: He wanted to instill the work ethic. And, because he knew if you don’t learn to work to be more productive to improve your efficiency, to cooperate with other people at an early age, you may never learn those habits. So you can’t make a contribution, you can’t be successful. Then, years later, when I asked my father, I said ‘Pop, why were you so much harder on me than my younger brothers?’ he said, son, you plum wore me out.

KELLY: Later, Koch kept up the hard work landing at the prestigious M.I.T. His plan was not to take over the family business.

KOCH: The thought of going back and working for him – he was such a disciplinarian growing up, I had no idea I would do that.

KELLY: But things changed.

KOCH: He called me, he said, ‘Son, my health is not good. I don’t have that long to live. Either you come back to run the company or I’m going to have to sell it.’

KELLY: Tell us about the first piece of advice that you dad gave you when you took over as CEO.

KOCH: His first word when I arrived is, ‘Son, i hope your first deal is a loser, otherwise, you’ll think you’re a lot smarter than you are.’ But he had tremendous values, tremendous integrity, humility, work ethic and terrific thirst for knowledge.

KELLY: You warn in the book about the trap of overconfidence, in a business and a person?

KOCH: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Hubris, arrogance, is just one step ahead of loss of integrity, because if you think you’re better than other people, you know more, then you’re going to think, as many leaders have, that the rules don’t apply to them – so they lose their integrity.

KELLY: His new book, good profit, emphasizes integrity, arguing, it’s fine to make lots of money. But how you do it matters.

KELLY: You say you’ve always prized values over talent in your hiring decision. Really?

KOCH: Absolutely. I’ve had the philosophy that John Adams expressed, in the kind of system that were trying to create in this country: that this is a system for moral people. It will work for no other.

KELLY: You’re telling me some hot-shot salesman from New York can come down, top of his game, sure, he may bend the rules here or there, but he is a producer. You won’t hire that guy?

KOCH: No, absolutely not – if he is going to bend the rules, we won’t have it. In our interview process, that’s what we look for.

KELLY: How do you figure out someone’s value, their integrity, in a job interview.

KOCH: We put the candidate in different situations, like we have somebody that the candidate doesn’t think is important, we take him down to the cafeteria, we see how the candidate treats that person, we see how they treat the staff at the cafeteria, and we see how they answer questions. We ask them, ‘Gosh, did you have any problems? Did you make any mistakes?’ If they say ‘Oh, no, but the company was so screwed up and they wouldn’t listen to me.’

KELLY: What does the inability to admit mistakes tell you about somebody?

KOCH: They don’t have any humility and probably don’t have any integrity.

KELLY: Humility in hiring also served Koch well.

KELLY: Don’t you want all the hot shot MBAs from Harvard and Wharton and elsewhere?

KOCH: We find we do better from community colleges, from rural colleges, like after I was president of Koch Industries, our next president were — well, one didn’t graduate from college. And the current president is from state.

KELLY: At Koch Industries, even you get evaluated. Is that true?

KOCH: That’s true.

KELLY: How does that work?

KOCH: That works great. I learn a lot.

KELLY: Aren’t you afraid of a bruised ego?

KOCH: No – here’s the thing. I think all of us need this attitude. Do you want to have your feelings hurt a little bit because you have some negative feedback, or do you want to continue down the disastrous track you’re on and have a huge disaster? Talk about a bruised ego. It may ruin your career.

KELLY: Is it true that any employee at Koch can earn more than his boss?

KOCH: Oh, absolutely. We try to reward people according to the value they create, value they create in society and for the company.

KELLY: And you will hire based on talent? Even if you don’t have an open spot, necessarily?

KOCH: On values, yeah.

KELLY: How can you hold to a budget under those circumstances?

KOCH: Well, we’re not big on budgets.

KELLY: The other message you want to send your employee is try new things. Don’t be afraid to fail or make mistakes.

KOCH: Right, if you never failed, then you’re probably not doing very much. You’re certainly not innovating. You’re not improving, because the only way you improve is to try new things.

KELLY: What if you’re a big success and you don’t want to risk it?

KOCH: That’s one of my principles. Success is one of the worst enemies of success, because success tends to breed complacency and lack of humility.

KELLY: When companies aren’t successful, Koch says Uncle Sam should stay out of it, dismissing government subsidies, loans and tariffs as “corporate welfare.”

KOCH: Well, corporate welfare, I think, is a disaster for this country. It’s crippling our economy. It is contributing to a permanent underclass and corrupting the business community.

KELLY: Critics say what the Kochs really oppose is government assistance that could hurt Koch’s bottom line, a charge Koch denies.

KOCH: We oppose all corporate welfare, whether we benefit or not. You will find that our policy positions mainly hurt our profitability rather than help it.

KELLY: What about China? We’ve heard Donald Trump talk repeatedly about how they’re devaluing their currency, and how the next president need to put a stop to that by perhaps imposing a tariff on their goods.

KOCH: Well, I mean, tariffs are a disaster. The way — the principle way that human beings had gotten out of extreme poverty is free trade.

KELLY: When we return, Charles Koch addresses the attack from the left, the death threats and why he is still working so hard at the age of 79. Don’t go away.

KELLY: The Kochs are behind a number of political action groups which have been demonized by the left. Donors may remain anonymous under the law, a source of consternation for Koch’s critics, including President Obama.

KELLY: Not long ago, President Obama himself came out and attacked you. It’s not the first time, but he said that the Koch brothers are trying to prevent new clean energy businesses from succeeding. You came out, and, in a rare public statement, said you were flabbergasted by that accusation. Why?

KOCH: Because the opposite is true. All of our policies are based on whether it will make — enable people to improve their lives or it will make their lives worse.

KELLY: On the comments made by President Obama – beneath the dignity of the office?

KOCH: I think it is – to misrepresent what a company stands for and attacking private citizens for trying to help people improve their lives.

KELLY: Do you believe that the Democrats, including the president, have tried to make bogeymen out of you and your brother David?

KOCH: Oh, definitely. That’s a full time job on their part. I mean — and that’s why I’ve never been that fond of politics and only got into it recently kicking and screaming, because I don’t think politicians are going to reverse the trajectory of this country. I think it’s going to depend on the American people understanding what is fair and what makes their lives better.

KELLY: Why do you think they’ve been so relentless in their attacks. Harry Reid, your brother David pointed out, mentioned the Koch brothers 279 times. They have painted you as evil. The White House actually put you on an enemies list back in the 2012 campaign.

KOCH: Well, I mean that’s very sad that — that’s what we’ve come to, because in fact what we’re trying to do is the opposite.

KELLY: Is it dangerous? I know you’ve gotten death threats.

KOCH: Yeah, I get a lot of death threats. But the way I look at it, I feel I have a moral obligation to do the best I can to make the country better for everybody, and that threatens certain people because they’re going to have much less power. I want the power to go back to people making decisions over their own lives rather than some experts making it.

KELLY: Are you a libertarian?

KOCH: No. I’m — I have been a libertarian in my past but now I consider myself a classical liberal.

KELLY: Classical liberal. What does that mean?

KOCH: Classical liberal is someone who wants a society that maximizes peace, civility, tolerance and well being for everyone. One that opens opportunities for everyone to advance themselves.

KELLY: Koch didn’t want to reveal his opinions on individual candidates. But we tried.

KELLY: So the “L” word will have people asking is he going to vote for Hillary Clinton?

KOCH: Well, I mean, putting aside all the things that are said about Hillary today, my main difference with her is on the vision of what kind of society will make people’s lives better. So this is a vision of society in which people are too evil or stupid to run their own lives, but those in power are perfectly capable of running everybody else’s lives because they’re so much smarter. It’s what Hayek called the fatal conceit, or William Easterly called the tyranny of experts, because that’s what it is, it is tyranny.

KELLY: So, this discussion will now have people thinking, ‘Ah-ha! He likes Rand Paul.’ He has libertarian leanings. He wants government out of our lives. Is Rand your guy?

KOCH: No, I don’t have a guy. I have these principles and what I’m trying to accomplish, and what we need, to me, is a candidate that will help change the trajectory of the country from all this wasteful, irresponsible spending that’s heading us for a financial cliff, not just by the Democrats but by the Republicans. The reason we tend to support Republicans is they’re taking us toward the cliff at only 70 miles per hour miles an hour and the Democrats are taking us 100 miles an hour.

KELLY: They say you’re going to spend 900 million dollars on the presidential race this cycle. Is that true?

KOCH: No, not even close.

KELLY: Koch says it’s actually more like 300 million, and not all will go toward the presidential race. As for the Democrat’s charge that Koch’s donor network is shady —

KOCH: Everything I give, pretty much, is public. Now not every donor wants to — or is willing to get the kind of abuse and attacks that we do, or death threats, so they’re not willing to have their names out. I think the other side is pushing for that because they want to intimidate people so they won’t oppose it.

KELLY: But Charles Koch is not intimidated, and not slowing down any time soon.

KELLY: At 79 years old, you still work nine hours a day.

KOCH: Well, more than that! C’mon!

KELLY: You come home and have dinner with Liz. Then you work again.

KOCH: Ok, you got it. Thank you so much.

KELLY: Why? Why do you still work so hard?

KOCH: Because I feel a passion for what we’re trying to do. I mean why does somebody who’s old who’s a writer keep writing? Because that’s who they are. That’s their nature, and to be happy you have to fulfill your nature. That’s what Aristotle taught so many centuries ago, that the road to happiness isn’t to go drink more or consume more. The road to happiness is to fully develop your abilities, and then apply them to do good.

KELLY: And speaking of happiness, Koch’s father left his sons a bit of money upon his death, along with one final piece of advice.

KOCH: “If you choose to let this money destroy your initiative and independence, then it will be a curse to you and my action in giving it to you will have been a mistake. I shall regret very much to have you miss the glorious feeling of accomplishment. Remember that often adversity is a blessing in disguise and is certainly the greatest character builder.” That’s tough.

KELLY: The glorious feeling of accomplishment.

KOCH: Yeah.

KELLY: Charles Koch, thank you.

KOCH: Well, thank you, Megyn. Appreciate it.

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IMHO this man is delusional and making comments like FBI caused the Oklahoma explosions, the the 1993 World trade building. I think not. this guy is crazy.


After retiring from the FBI, Gunderson set up a private investigation firm, Ted L. Gunderson and Associates, in Santa Monica. In 1980, he became a defense investigator for Green Beret Doctor Jeffrey R. MacDonald, who had been convicted of the 1970 murders of his pregnant wife and two daughters. Gunderson obtained affidavits from Helena Stoeckley confessing to her involvement in the murders.[8]

He also investigated a child molestation trial in Manhattan Beach California. In a 1995 conference in Dallas, Gunderson warned about the supposed proliferation of secret Satanic groups, and the danger posed by the New World Order, an alleged shadow government that would be controlling the US government.[9] He also claimed that a "slave auction" in which children were sold to men in turbans had been held in Las Vegas, that four thousand ritual human sacrifices are performed in New York City every year, and that the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City was carried out by the US government.[9] Gunderson believed that in the US there is a secret widespread network of groups who kidnap children and infants, and subject them to Satanic ritual abuse and subsequent human sacrifice. All of which is documented.[10][11]

Gunderson had an association with Anthony J. Hilder and was interviewed by him on various occasions. The two men appeared at numerous conferences together.[12]They both said that the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing was a result of FBI agent provocateurs.[13]

Gunderson was a member of the Constitution Party.

On July 31, 2011 Gunderson's son reported that his father had died from cancer.[1]


You think Gunderson is crazy do you. I happen to know for a fact that he isn't.

IW then prove his wild ass claims for he can not.


Assistant Secretary of Housing and Federal Housing Commissioner at the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development in the first Bush Administration

She said there were serious dependencies in the books at the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Center, she was being sent with a team to do an audit. The day before they were to arrive, it was bombed.

There's plenty of other stuff in this movie to keep you busy:


During Desert Storm, me & my brother-in-law worked out of the house. We had CNN on constantly watching what was going on. I saw the report on the weaponry they were using.

They said thousands of Iraqi soldiers were dismantling their weapons and surrendering to often one or two American servicemen. It showed them on their knees crying and begging for mercy. The announcer said they were loosing control over their bowels. I not only remember it, I have some footage of it.


It is all maybe, could have been, smoke and mirrors where is the beef?


Thank God you're still coherent! I was just watching "The Last Man On Earth" with Vincent Price. I was telling him, "Well, I guess this is it old friend."

I just posted this & only one guy noticed it:

I was really starting to think this was the Zombie Apocalypse they've been talking about. But you're here now. Everything is okay.

Speaking of which, military publication from 1998:

"The Mind Has No Firewall"

First footnote:

"1. I. Chernishev, "Can Rulers Make `Zombies' and Control the World?" Orienteer, February 1997, pp. 58-62."

I imagine by now you're thinking, "Damn! This guy's good!"

That's true, I am.

Historical precedence: Project MKUltra:

Church Committee confirms CIA using mind control on American citizens in 1975:

"On May 9, 1975, the Church Committee decided to call acting CIA director William Colby. That same day Ford's top advisers (Henry Kissinger, Donald Rumsfeld, Philip W. Buchen, and John Marsh) drafted a recommendation that Colby be authorized to brief only rather than testify, and that he would be told to discuss only the general subject, with details of specific covert actions to be avoided except for realistic hypotheticals. But the Church Committee had full authority to call a hearing and require Colby's testimony.
The Ford administration, particularly Rumsfeld, was concerned about the effort by members of the Church Committee in the Senate and the Pike Committee in the House to curtail the power of U.S. intelligence agencies."

"The Select Committee on Intelligence was preceded by the Church Committee (1975)."

That's the reason the Select Committee on Intelligence was set up in the first place.

“The CIA unconstitutionally spied on Congress by hacking into Senate intelligence committee computers. This grave misconduct not only is illegal, but it violates the U.S. Constitution’s requirement of separation of powers,” said Mr. Udall, a member of the committee. “These offenses, along with other errors in judgment by some at the CIA, demonstrate a tremendous failure of leadership, and there must be consequences.”

So the committee that was set up specifically to insure this never happened AGAIN on U.S. soil got hacked by one of the agencies it was put in place to oversee and despite what they expostulated must have serious consequences, there were none, just like there were none after the Church Committee. So if nobody's minding the store, what exactly is going to keep it from happening again? I'll answer that: nothing. Nothing at all.

"Third time I've said that. I'll probably say it three more times. See, in my line of work, you've got to keep repeating things over and over and over again FOR THE TRUTH TO SINK IN. To kind of catapult the propaganda."

Doesn't seem to work against TALIBAN OR ISIS ... must be something in the water?

Second half of this show, Douglas Hagmann discusses Nazi/Muslim Brotherhood connection: Bio:

This is not the first time I've heard of this from an inside source:


This is a link to a 45 minute podcast where Alan Watt breaks down how the global government structure works:

If you want to listen to more, you can find them here:


The Electoral College is very import element for to securing our Republic... it provided the means for the States to regulate the popular vote, by giving the State Legislatures, the power to appoint 'electors' based on how the State decided to allocate them.... all to winner or by percentage.   

Citizens of the United States do not directly elect the president or the vice president; instead, voters elect designated intermediaries called "electors," who almost always pledge to vote for a particular presidential and vice presidential candidates (though unpledged electors are possible) based on the popular vote and state law.




Political Cartoons by AF BrancoPolitical Cartoons by Gary Varvel

Political Cartoons by Tom Stiglich


Breaking — West Virginia Lawmakers Invite Persecuted Pro-Second Amendment Counties In Virginia To Join Their State

West Virginia lawmakers introduced legislation to invite persecuted pro Second Amendment Counties to join their state.

The West Virginia Senate adopted a resolution to remind Virginia residents from Frederick County that they have a standing invite — from 1862 — to become part of West Virginia.

West Virginia freedom fighters broke away from Virginia Democrat slave owners during the Civil War.

This week West Virginia has once again invited persecuted Virginia pro 2-A counties to come join their state.

Sounds like a winning plan!

Resolution 8 reads as follows:


(By Delegates Howell, Summers, Shott, Householder, C. Martin, Hott, Graves, Cadle, Barnhart, J. Jeffries, Maynard, Phillips, Foster, Hamrick, Steele, D. Jeffries, Wilson, Waxman, Bartlett, Paynter, Linville, Sypolt, Bibby, Hill, Ellington, Higginbotham, J. Kelly, Mandt, Pack, Dean and P. Martin)

[Introduced January 14, 2020]

Providing for an election to be had, pending approval of the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, and a majority of qualified citizens voting upon the proposition prior to August 1, 2020, for the admission of certain counties and independent cities of the Commonwealth of Virginia to be admitted to the State of West Virginia as constituent counties, under the provisions of Article VI, Section 11 of the Constitution of West Virginia

Whereas, The Legislature of West Virginia finds that in 1863, due to longstanding perceived attitudes of neglect for the interests of the citizens of Western Virginia, and a studied failure to address the differences which had grown between the counties of Western Virginia and the government at Richmond, the Commonwealth of Virginia was irretrievably divided, and the new State of West Virginia was formed; and

Whereas, Such division occurred as the Trans-Allegheny portions of Virginia perceived that they suffered under an inequitable measure of taxation by which they bore a disproportionate share of the tax burden; and

Whereas, That this perception was further compounded by the effects of a scheme of representation by which Trans-Allegheny Virginia was not allowed to have its proper and equitable share of representation in the government at Richmond; and

Whereas, That this arrangement arguably resulted in the tax dollars of Trans-Allegheny Virginia being used to enrich the Tidewater through internal improvements which did not benefit the people of Western Virginia, while the people of the Trans-Allegheny had little to no say in how their tax dollars were allocated; and

Whereas, Though this course led to an irreconcilable division, and the subsequent formation of West Virginia, yet, the longstanding peaceful cooperation between this State and the Commonwealth of Virginia is a sign that such separation, undertaken even under the most challenging and onerous of circumstances, can, with the passage of time, yield lasting results which are beneficial to both sides; and

Whereas, In the intervening years, the same neglect for the interests of many of the remaining counties of the Commonwealth of Virginia has allegedly been evidenced by the government at Richmond; and

Whereas, Particularly, many citizens of the Southside, the Shenandoah Valley, Southwestern Virginia, and the Piedmont contend that an inequitable measure of taxation exists by which they bear a disproportionate share of the present tax burden of the Commonwealth; and

Whereas, The people of the Southside, the Shenandoah Valley, Southwestern Virginia, and the Piedmont also believe that, currently, a scheme of representation exists by which the citizens of Southside, the Shenandoah Valley, Southwestern Virginia, and the Piedmont do not have a proper share of representation in the government at Richmond; and, consequently

Whereas, The people of the Southside, the Shenandoah Valley, Southwestern Virginia, and the Piedmont believe that their tax dollars are used to enrich the Tidewater and Northern Virginia through internal improvements which do not benefit the people of these other parts of Virginia, while the people of these other parts of Virginia have little to no say in how their tax dollars are allocated; and

Whereas, In recent days, these tensions have been compounded by a perception of contempt on the part of the government at Richmond for the differences in certain fundamental political and societal principles which prevail between the varied counties and cities of that Commonwealth; and

Whereas, In the latest, and most evident, in this string of grievances, the government at Richmond now seeks to place intolerable restraints upon the rights guaranteed under the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution to the citizens of that Commonwealth; and

Whereas, The Legislative body of West Virginia believes that this latest action defies the wise counsel which has come down to us in the august words of our common Virginia Founders: as the government at Richmond now repudiates the counsel of that tribune of liberty, Patrick Henry-who stated to the Virginia Ratifying Convention in 1788 that “The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun”; and

Whereas, The government at Richmond now repudiates the counsel of a Signer of the Declaration and premier advocate of American independence, Richard Henry Lee-who stated in The Federal Farmer that “To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms”; and

Whereas, The government at Richmond now repudiates the counsel of that zealous guardian of our inherent rights, George Mason-who stated that “To disarm the people…[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them”; and

Whereas, The government at Richmond now repudiates the counsel of the declaimer of our independence and theoretician of our freedoms, Thomas Jefferson-who stated in his first draft of the Virginia Constitution, that “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms”; and

Whereas, The Boards of Supervisors of many Virginia counties and the Councils of many Virginia cities have recognized this dangerous departure from the doctrine of the Founders on the part of the government at Richmond; and

Whereas, These Boards of Supervisors and Councils have passed resolutions refusing to countenance what they affirm are unwarranted and unconstitutional measures by that government to infringe the firearm rights of Virginians; and

Whereas, The actions of the government at Richmond undertaken since the recent general election have, regrettably, resulted in unproductive contention and escalating a lamentable state of civic tension; and

Whereas, That, as has been proven in numerous instances, such as have been observed internationally in more recent times with the peaceful dissolutions of Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union, and the creation of South Sudan, or, earlier in Virginia’s own history, with the formation of Kentucky, the peaceful partition of neighboring peoples can occur, and, is often very beneficial to both sides in reducing tensions and improving the tenor of discourse over ongoing political and societal differences; and

Whereas, Article VI, Section 11 of The Constitution of the State of West Virginia explicitly permits additional territory to be admitted into, and become part of this state, with the consent of the Legislature and of a majority of the qualified voters of the state; and

Whereas, In a spirit of conciliation, the Legislature of West Virginia hereby extends an invitation to our fellow Virginians who wish to do so, to join us in our noble experiment of 156 years of separation from the government at Richmond; and, we extend an invitation to any constituent county or city of the Commonwealth of Virginia to be admitted to the body politic of the State of West Virginia, under the conditions set forth in our state Constitution, specifically, with the consent of a majority of the voters of such county or city voting upon such proposition; and we hereby covenant that their many grievances shall be addressed, and, we further covenant with them that their firearms rights shall be protected to the fullest extent possible under our Federal and State Constitutions; and

Whereas, Providing that the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia shall give its assent to any county or independent city presently part of the Commonwealth of Virginia having the opportunity and ability to do so, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Legislature of West Virginia.

Trump Holds Rally in Milwaukee, WI 1-14-20

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